Genderqueer 2 genderqueer's Blog

What the hell, questioning transphobia

Posted in Uncategorized by genderqueer2genderqueer on June 1, 2010

This is going to be hard to write, because I consider the people who run questioning transphobia to be freinds of mine, I also think they in general they run a good blog, which I wouldn’t want to run, however I think they really fucked up, and I think that has to be noted.

When the questioning transphobia post “greeting from asia” was published, it reminded me of another post, on another big blog, that was the infamous “no to the notion of transgender”.

The post Greeting from asia was  anti sexworker and to me it constituted hate speech,

In the comments lisa said

I’d like people to focus on the rest of the post, but the complaints about the dehumanization of sex workers are valid.

Which sounds quite a lot like

Editors’ Note: All posts published on Bilerico Project do not reflect the opinions of nor any endorsement by the Editorial Team. Many Bilerico readers and contributors have found Ronald Gold’s op-ed offensive or needlessly coarse. The idea behind Bilerico Project is to encourage dialogue among different facets of the LGBT community that might normally never interact this intimately. We encourage all readers to continue responding to Mr. Gold in the same spirit his post was written – with positive intent while bluntly stating your own opinion and experiences.

I am really disappointed in questioning transphobia,  time has pasted, their has been no apology, no edit, no “hey guys we are sorry that article went up with anti-sex worker content”, nothing.

It is not ok to deamonise sex workers, it is not ok to talk about the trans community as if trans sex workers are not part of that community, it is not ok to suggest those trans people who access hormones without the help of doctors are doing “real” trans people a disservice

hate speech is written with “positive intent” is still hate speech.

As for Yuki’s question

So how would the advancement of sex workers benefit the transgender community as a whole?

What is considered success for a sex worker that contributes to the betterment of trans communities worldwide?

I point you towards little light (who you should be reading anyway), who as far as I know has never been a sex worker said, particularly if you feel like we shouldn’t focus on sex workers rights because they only support sex workers.

The ground is unsteady under my feet, and the job, the pantry, the door that locks, I can get pulled off it just as fast as I can be locked up for soliciting for walking down the street for groceries.

Yuki, you might want a better argument than no one who could afford at cis prostitue would hire a trans protitute.

There are so many things wrong with this news piece I do not know where to start. For someone who can carry RM 400 (~150 Aus dollars/130 US )in his wallet, it seems ridiculous that this “Ping”, would choose a transsexual female for companionship, rather than a Chinese female social escort or a female prostitute, which is all over Chow Kit. It is hard to believe. [currency converstion added by me]

Oh and cigfran, the best way to reach across cultures also isn’t to ignore the anti sex worker comments and comments that seem to tatitily suggest that the murder of sex workers is less important that the murder of non sexworker trans women. Unless you also feel that trans women means non sexworker trans women.

I want questioning transphobia to be a safer space for trans people, that includes trans women trans men, genderqueers whether or not they are sex workers, that means not coming across a writer on this blog suggesting that their murder would mean less because of the work they do.  I want to see a statement that questioning transphobia isn’t only a space for non sexworker trans people.)

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14 Responses

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  1. Lisa Harney said, on June 1, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Yeah, just so you know, because of this, future guest posters will have their posts vetted for approval prior to posting.

    Yuki Choe was invited to blog because of her perspective as a trans woman in Malaysia, not because of her perspective on sex workers (which i didn’t know at the time).

    I had already told Yuki that I didn’t want any more posts condemning sex workers posted before you had e-mailed me about this.

    I asked for the back and forth on that to stop not because I didn’t want people to defend sex workers, but because I didn’t want anyone to keep attacking them.

    I haven’t posted anything since then, and there’s a reason for that. It’s not because I’m lazy.

  2. Lisa Harney said, on June 1, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    It’s because I don’t have a lot of energy lately.

  3. genderqueer2genderqueer said, on June 1, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    While I understand the lack of energy (trust me I do) a number of posts have gone up since then from you co(bloggers? editors?) without any comment about Yuki’s post, and it is disapointing to see nothing being said about it, as I feel like leaving it up their without comment could still be doing harm to someone who comes across QT.

    Would it be possible to get someone else to leave a note at the top of the post?

  4. Sophia said, on June 1, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    Was just talking on this elsewhere in another context , that of UScentric bias in trans and feminist dialogue. In terms of cultural specificity justifying the attitudes in this post, clearly it doesn’t signify. But I thought at the time that in some sense European attitudes* may get a sort of free ride to sex worker support through a more generally accepting cultural standpoint.
    It would need a very different post structure, and probably a different forum, but something on trans/ sex worker intersectionality across cultures could be fruitful.There are, after all, significant cross cultural variations in what constitutes sex work and how trans people can be supportive of the sex worker community outside direct intersections.As well as condemning the ‘greetings’ post attitudes.
    *Some of my best friends are on fetlife, and I’m considering it, so maybe I’m not that typical an example.

  5. Yuki Choe said, on September 8, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    I am appalled by the way you are trying to present me here, and pick and choose in an attempt to demonize me. I doubt you can ever answer the two questions you reposted here. I dislike sex work, I do not hate sex workers, and if you want to do sex work, go ahead, it is really not my problem. Just stop calling people who are against sex work as “haterz”. One of our citizens here even ran away to your country to pick apples instead of being reduced to sex work here. So perhaps you wish to come to Malaysia and start a career? South East Asia has a huge booming sex industry. Come.

  6. michelle yuumura setsuna said, on September 8, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    hmm… anti-sexworker would be like the religious authority, as my rational mind would believe
    just because someone doesn’t like the idea of being in the sex industry, does not constitute that he/she/it hates the sex industry
    just because someone would rather see a sex worker working in some other line of work, does not means he/she/it is anti-sexworker

  7. genderqueer2genderqueer said, on September 8, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    Hi Yuki. I don’t believe I have ever called anyone a haterz, so I promise not to start, do you think anti-sexwork describes youv if not how would you perfer your political views to be discribed? I guess that the two questions I posted here are the two below, if they aren’t let me know and point out the questions you want answered.

    So how would the advancement of sex workers benefit the transgender community as a whole?

    Well I think the answer to that is two fold, firstly I believe that while prostitution is illegal false arrest is a problem for trans people, particularly trans femme spectrum people as I tried to describe by quoting little light, who lives in fear of being seen a asex worker because she is a trans women of colour, and mistreated because sex work is illigeal in her area. basically I think that it is in trans people and other minorities interests to attempt to minimise the was in which state power can be brought against us.

    Secondly, few things that the trans community might push for politically helps all trans people, because our lives are so different, for example in my country their is currently a legal fight going on to allow trans men to change their documentation without hysterectomy, this doesn’t help trans women/tfs people or trans men who have already had a hysterectomy but I think it is worth fighting for because it helps some trans people a lot. Similarly, those trans people who past as cis, and are non sex workers probably are not helped a great deal by sexworker rights, but that doesn’t stop sex worker rights being worth fighting for because they help trans sex workers and other trans people who are oppressed by the antisexworker society.

    What is considered success for a sex worker that contributes to the betterment of trans communities worldwide?

    As I commented above about little lights experience, I would say that decriminalizing street walking would make it safer for her to get her grosseries knowing that a transphobic cop that wants to hard her has one less thing he can hit her with, in many places in the world protestution is a sex crime and so was again for example little light picked up for street walking that could interfere with her abity to work as a teacher or childcare worker, or stop her from being able to foster or adopt.

    While the murder of sex workers is not investigated, both sexworkers and non sex workers who are in the “wrong side of town” something that many trans people end up doing because lack of economic choices lead them to choose housing in non safe area’s allowing those who might abuse them murder them, either for being sex workers or just being trans free Raine and seeming support for their violence.

    One of our citizens here even ran away to your country to pick apples instead of being reduced to sex work here. So perhaps you wish to come to Malaysia and start a career? South East Asia has a huge booming sex industry. Come.

    Firstly, while I never did fruit picking, an number of my freinds worked as fruit pickers, which they discribed as an ok job as far as manual labour goes. if your citizan perfered fruit picking to sex work, then I am glad that she was able to aquire work as a fruit picker, I dream of a world where the worse reason that anyone would go into sex work is that they perfered it to stacking shelfs in a supermarket or picking fruit with decent conditions. I am very privilaged as an australian non sex worker, I do not deny that, however I disagree with the anti sexwork stance in that I believe that we waste our time trying to stop sex work, rather than trying to make it better, safer, and give those pressured or forced into sex work other options.

  8. Yuki Choe said, on September 8, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    You did not answer the first question in terms of sex workers, but rather still attempt to draw in trans people and hysterectomy into it to justify an occupation that is tainted by scandals, child abuse, sex abuse, violence, broken marriages, personal validation in terms of condom use, etc. If you wish to legalize sex work itself, what benefits will there be except for tax for the government and HIV/AIDS control?

    And again, you judged people who are anti sex work as anti-sex workers.

    You did not answer my second question, and attempt to argue from the side of people perceived as sex workers as justification for sex work. I agree with you that decriminalization will lead to better security for sex workers, but it still does not justify the impossible, sex work is an occupation without any vision, direction, mission attached. To answer the question for you, there are, and will never be any “successful” sex workers, let alone trans sex workers. Sex work can provide temporary relief for anyone, not only trans people, who are stigmatized and discriminated to the point of poverty and homelessness. But sex work as a choice?

    Sex work will never go away, as long as sex sells. And in a increasingly heterosexist society where women and children, and even trans females are objectified as sex toys and weaker people to take control of, the demand will be always increasing worldwide, especially at oriental countries in South East Asia. The money will always be there, as human beings are trafficked all over by prostitution rings, and the uplines will always get rich. People will be increasingly reduced to sex objects as divorce rate increases, and emotion is nothing to the physical intimacy of a fresh peace of meat in the eyes of people who are clients to sex workers. It will always be there. But that does not make sex work a good chosen profession or make sex work right? But still, it is their choice.

    Likewise, no one has the right to call me out as “anti-sex worker” for feeling lucky not being in sex work, and viewing sex work with distaste and dislike. Just as if I feel lucky I am not working in a multi-level marketing company, does that mean I am anti-MLM?

    I have to part ways with you. There is simply nothing to pursue here. In the end, sex work is a personal choice for many, and no choice for many. I am lucky I have options.

  9. genderqueer2genderqueer said, on September 8, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    I understand if you have decided to leave the conversation, but if you come back, I really am not sure how I did not answer your questions, I honestly was trying to, my argument yes is in general that I believe in the decriminalization of sex work for many reasons that are not directly connected to sex workers, as for if I think sex work is good? Yes I think it can be, but I am not a sex worker and would prefer they spoke for themselves.

    As for what I think the social good will be of legalizing sex work, well I don’t think that sex workers should be in jail, I think that not being criminalized may help some pressured/non consensual sex workers to seek help because they will not fear being criminalized.

    Well I disagree with you about the lack of successful sex workers, because I know a number who tell me that they feel they are successful, who have had good experiences of there work. You say you answered the question for me, this seems odd as I disagree with almost all of your answer, if their are issues you feel I have not addressed, please let me know, otherwise I dislike having your words placed for me,

    “And again, you judged people who are anti sex work as anti-sex workers.” I don’t believe I did, but I am sorry if I came across that way.

    And in a increasingly heterosexist society where women and children, and even trans females are objectified as sex toys and weaker people to take control of, the demand will be always increasing worldwide, especially at oriental countries in South East Asia.

    I can only speak from my own experience but at least in the bits of the world I have lived in the world seems to be becoming a lot less hetrosexist, with more space for trans people and queer people both cis and trans.

  10. Yuki Choe said, on September 8, 2010 at 6:35 pm

    We would disagree, which is why I find no point in discussing further. I already explained how you did not answer my questions, however you felt you did. I support decriminalization, safety and health for sex workers, trans or not, however, it would not move my stand, that there is no good to sex work. Again, no direction, no mission, no vision, just temporary relief and with no future. And I do not know what you mean by your successful trans woman. But success in the end is still personal. Money? Fame? Experience? Bought a house and a dog? Able to eat? But the measure of success in society? Nil. And I never have anything against forced/non-consensual sex work. So again, I answered my question for you. I did not place words on you dear.

    I do not know your area, but society in this part of the world is getting heterosexist. Perhaps this shows the crux of our disagreement, different countries, different issues, different traditions, etc. So perhaps just as at QT, we just lay this matter to rest. I am just here to defend myself, as I have been accused of being anti-sex workers, which seems to be the context of your post. Again, I am not. No sex work for me. That is all.

  11. genderqueer2genderqueer said, on September 9, 2010 at 7:20 pm

    @michelle yuumura setsuna

    rational? can I take from that that people who disagree with you are not rational?

    Then again I have a problem with the idea of people as fundamentally rational

    http://geekfeminism.org/2010/08/24/myth-of-white-male-geek-rationality/

  12. Yuki Choe said, on September 10, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    “hmm… anti-sexworker would be like the religious authority, as my rational mind would believe
    just because someone doesn’t like the idea of being in the sex industry, does not constitute that he/she/it hates the sex industry
    just because someone would rather see a sex worker working in some other line of work, does not means he/she/it is anti-sexworker”

    You disagree with these? You feel dislike for sex work is equivalent to anti-sex workers?

    So you believe, as from the QT article, that I feel lucky I am not a sex worker, that from that statement alone, I am anti-sex workers? From what rationale you base that?

    This is precisely why, it is a total waste of time discussing anything, with your thinking.

  13. nix said, on September 11, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    genderqueer2genderqueer, i really like your outline of how the reduction of discrimination and violence against sex workers is a positive outcome for trans and other people. thanks!

  14. michelle yuumura setsuna said, on September 12, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    oh my, so based on your rationale, anyone who expresses their opinion will reject other’s opinion?
    rational is formed based on the person’s educational background (formal and informal), experience, knowledge, upbringing, etc. so disagreement on one’s point of view is imminent. i’m not as narrow-minded as you are to label other views or opinion as WRONG just because i disagree with them 😐


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